Personal Budgets User Group Meeting Minutes, Monday 28th February 2011
Introduction by Jenny Hurst
Hello everyone, thank you again for coming. The agenda for this meeting is as follows;
v Introductions
v Feedback from meetings
v Members feedback from meetings
v Project update- Pre payment card’s, legal rewards, Blog and managed accounts
v Focus groups: The ups and downs of Personal Budgets, etc
v A.O.B
Introduction: Welcome back everyone, thank you again for coming. It seems as though there are a lot of new faces, so for those that are still not sure who I am my name is Jenny Hurst, I am the new Personal Budget coordinator. I replaced Jas Johal for almost 6months now. I am at ADKC 5days a week from if anyone would like to get in contact with me.
Feedback from meeting attended: Martha and Jamie Renton and I had a meeting a few weeks ago with Toni Camp who’s the personalisation officer of the council. The meeting was to discuss managed accounts but I will talk about that later in the project update. During the meeting Jamie mentioned the struggle to receive information in accessible format and Toni was shocked that nothing had been done due to being mentioned months ago. Toni promised she will look into this as she knows how determined ADKC are towards there members.
The second topic that was bought up in this meeting was lack of guidelines of Personal Budget use. Members are constantly complaining that the council refuse to provide a clear outline of how and how not to use Personal budget. Members were told that personal budgets are suppose to be flexible, however it seems as though the social services are getting stricter and stricter therefore members feel as though personal budget is no longer flexible. Toni Camp made a suggestion and said “If Martha and Jenny can ask the Personal budget group if they would like us to go through there support plans and take out examples that we may find relevant and use as examples to create a clear guideline document”. Members of the group said that this would be a good idea. I am aware many members say they are scared to use there personal budget due to being told two different things so we need to make sure we make it clear to the council that we need a clear guideline and show them what we think has been an advantage and disadvantage whilst using Personal Budget. May I also mention, I can’t specify how important it is that privacy and confidentially must be respected in a Personal budget meeting, please be aware some people may get upset if they share an example in a meeting and then find out that it has been passed on to a neighbour or friend, I am very aware that many of you don’t intend to do this purposely but I would appreciate that, if people do share experiences or ask about certain issues, this is kept private and not repeated outside this room.
Toni also mentioned that we can use the council website to advertise personal budget more, and advertise any upcoming meetings or events so I have designed a small flyer and put it up on the people first website. Toni also mentioned there will be help sheets sent out to all the users who receive a personal budget who are seeking advice and assistance regarding there personal budgets.
Members Feedback from meetings: Maria Pace feed back about the training session that she and Jenny went to. Present at the meeting were Her Majesty and Revenue Customs (HMRC -the new name for the Inland Revenue), Hammersmith and Fulham Action Disability, various people from the two councils and Maria and Jenny representing for Action Disability Kensington and Chelsea. The purpose of this meeting was to discuss Tax and National Insurance and how to make training around this issue easy for people like us to understand. Many members are still unaware of their responsibilities about Tax and National Insurance, and a penalty is then charged due to not making payments. HMRC are trying to design training for “carer employers” to emphasise the importance of paying Tax and National Insurance, so please look out for this information.
The main point of the training were-
If you have a worker that does caring activities, they must be “Employed”, NOT “Self employed”.
All care workers need to be registered with the HMRC (with a P45 or P46 form) even if they don’t earn enough to pay tax / NI.
If you were supposed to deduct Tax / NI, and don’t, the HMRC can fine you / take legal proceedings against you/
IF YOU EMPLOY A PRIVATE WORKER AND YOU ARE IN ANY DOUBT AS TO WHETHER YOU SHOULD BE DEDUCTING TAX / NI FROM THE WORKERS WAGES OR NOT, PLEASE CONTACT THE PB TEAM .
Question: If someone is receiving £20 do they have to pay Tax?
Answer: It depends on the individuals circumstances i.e. there benefits, if someone has a second job. Please all be aware, ell employees must fill in a P46 which states there current circumstance and when they started working for you.
Question: Is payroll very expensive?
Answer: It depends on how many employees the individual has. You may also do it yourself if you follow the Employer’s CD Rom that they are providing, however you will need to pay for paper and ink to print out the wage slips, however it will be cheaper than having a payroll service. On the other hand, the individual’s circumstance may vary, as some may struggle with calculations, therefore they must have a payroll service, but if you have the ability to calculate, and want to, then feel free to do it yourself. Part of my job role consists of providing new contracts, basic legal advice etc., so please don’t hesitate to contact me if you wish to discuss anything about employment.
Feedback from Philomena and Patricia about the LINK personalisation meeting: This meeting was to discuss the experience individuals are having whilst using a personal budget within Hammersmith and Fulham or Kensington and Chelsea, good and bad. Several issues came up, including misleading advice, lack of concrete information etc. They were carrying out a survey so they can produce a report that they can provide to the council once completed. Once the report has been completed it will be published on the LINK website so we will be able to feed back what they concluded.
Project update
Pre Payment cards: The council wish to have up to 50 members for their trial and then do a review and see whether they should continue with this or not. It has been noted that there are some issues with the pre-payment card, such as people not being set-up on it quickly, not receiving the card, the name on the card not being correct, the bank putting charges on the card.
There are positives about the card – such as the fact that the card provider sends all the information about how you use the card, directly to the council. All individuals have different skills – some people might be perfectly happy to have their PB paid into their account and do all the monitoring that the council needs, but some people may find it difficult to manage their money, or they don’t want to have to bother, so would find it having a pre-paid card useful. However it should be offered as an option, not as compulsory.
Legal rewards: There is still no official guidance on legal rewards so Patricia, Angeleca and I decided to sit down together and come up with a plan about how to tackle this. I am trying to find out what other boroughs do about legal rewards and provide our council with the final outcome and see if we can input into proper guidance. At the moment only 13 councils replied to me. Some council’s replied and said ‘yes we allow legal rewards, but there’s no set guidance”, and some councils said “no, we don’t allow legal rewards”. Would the group like me to write this report now and present it to the council, or should I wait for a few more councils to reply to me, therefore we can have more information to argue our case?
Majority agree to wait for 5 more councils to respond to me - but if you weren’t at the meeting and want to have your say, please feel free to call and give us your opinion.
I would also like the group to come up with examples of how they wish to use legal rewards, and I will try and propose this to the council and hopefully they will consider our case.
Blog: For those that are unfamiliar with the term Blog, a Blog is something on the computer that you can constantly update for people to be aware of any upcoming events or to share bits of information. I have put up an introduction which shows all the upcoming events, I also put up a survey by an organisation called “People First” which asks about your experiences of having a PB. If 50 people from the same borough fill in this survey, a report will go out to the council giving people’s true feelings. This survey is private and anonymous.
The Blog also contains a calculator known as a RAS which anyone can use if receiving a personal budget. A RAS calculator calculates an “indicative” figure from your self assessment questionnaire, which the council use as an amount that will meet the individual’s needs, however this may be increased by the social worker if necessary.
So for those that wish to double check whether they are receiving the correct amount of money or not, please fill free to do this using the information on the blog.
The “Joint Committee for Human Rights” is doing a ‘Call for evidence’. They are a committee that want to get evidence about how government’s changes may affect disabled people’s ability to live independently. You may wish to submit a document individually or meet with other members and do something as a group.
On the Blog there are also links to the following topics and more
v Employers spot. This provides information about holiday pay and leave for personal budget users, information and tools that individual may find useful.
v Dates for the next personal budget meetings and any upcoming events
v Pre payment card information and update
Managed account: The meeting with Toni Camp a couple of weeks ago was regarding managed accounts. A managed account means ADKC receive money from council on behalf of the individual rather than going into there personal accounts and we make payments to the employee’s and any other additional costs if necessary. ADKC also deals with payroll companies so the individual has nothing to worry about concerning working out the Tax/ NI. One of the suggestions was that ADKC run their own payroll system, rather than using other companies to do this. Does the group wish for ADKC to run a Payroll service? Majority of the group said yes, but if you weren’t at the meeting and want to have a say, please feel free to contact Martha or me and give us your opinion.
AOB: One of the members mentioned an “out of the blue phone call” from her social worker stating that her review is urgently due. At the review the social worker took out a self assessment questionnaire and wanted to fill it in at that moment, however the member refused because she had not been told in advance that she would have to do this.
If this happens to you
- Ask for the review to take place at a time and venue that suits you – don’t feel pressurised.
- If you are not sure that the really are from the social services, ask them to send you a letter giving the date of the appointment and the name of the person coming
- Ask them to send you all the forms in advance, so you can sit down comfortably and read though them before the meeting.
Focus Group: Below are examples that a number of groups came up with regarding any “ups and downs” that they may have experienced whilst using a personal budget in the four categories as listed below.
Group 1 information:
v It is always sheer coincidence, we always hear about events through word of mouth that are to do with the council
v ADKC provide information
v Direct payments
v Occupational therapists
v Social workers are not knowledgeable enough about personal budget
v Contradictions and confliction for example some members were not informed to open separate bank accounts when starting a personal budget
v Lack of clarity on eligibility
Assessment:
v Bad social workers, some social workers carry out a medical assessment when not qualified to do so
v ADKC always present or held at ADKC
v Financial assessments are never clear to the members and don’t state what has to be contributed to the council
v No clarifications for lower limit on savings for financial assessment
v Self Assessment Questionnaires have unnecessary questions and should be removed due to confusing members
v Consist change of forms
v Users not informed of new social workers or any social worker
v Social workers misrepresent what is said by service users
v Take too long to start a Personal Budget
v DLA . Care component, never clear what will be taken away. Should be warned 1year in advance to keep any receipts or documents stating use of Personal Budget or spend DLA money more formally to prove disability related expenditure.
Using:
v Legal rewards, no clarity
v No clarity what Personal Budget can be used for
v Always feeling bullied and intimidated by the council
Review:
v Just want to be left alone
v Promised independence, employment and flexibility
v Too much stress and confusion
v Social workers always making harsh phone calls and bring documents without being informed which causes stress and pressure
Group 2 Information:
v Still unclear how to use money even though written in support plan
v No information regarding whole package
Assessment:
v Social workers are always to busy to come and carry out assessment
Review:
v Questions need to be changed and reworded as they don’t cover all needs of the individuals.
v Social workers loose original documents and send documents filled in by them and claim this as the original document
Using:
v Families feel offended and unappreciated if asked to assist individual for free, when receiving money to pay care workers.
Group 3 Information:
v Very brief bits and pieces of information
v No clarification
v Conflict because they did not want to put down the real information, only put down what they think is necessary.
v Not enough information on what should be included example day centre costs
v Conflicting information from different people about what can be claimed
v Not clear what needs to be proved as a NEED
v Social workers don’t want ADKC to help
v Members feel bullied and are forced to use other agencies for assistance
Assessment:
v Send letter to members to advice what our rights are
v More advice needed
v Need to put everything that must come out
v ALL needs to be assessed i.e. Physical and mental health
v When social workers assess the individual, it seems as though they want to decrease the money rather than help and increase it
v Clear and transparent breakdown of calculations should be given by law
v End result is the most important aspect
Review:
v Too many reviews and forms.
v Members don’t always understand what is being asked
v Very stressful and sometimes not necessary
v Need to be holistic i.e. everything that’s disability related must be looked at
v Query questions always answered only upon a new review
v Reviews made when Member hasn’t even started a Personal Budget
Using:
v Always computer delays in money arrival
v Not flexible on how money can be used
v Leave people alone unless a real need for change is needed
v Too strict and difficult to understand
v Unaware what we are entitled to
v Whole process upsetting and lower members self esteem
v Make members feel like beggars
Next meeting: 30th March, 1.30-3.30 at the London Lighthouse